Seattle Sounders FC v LAFC 5/16 6:30pm P/I/P

fuzzy
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Seattle Sounders FC v LAFC 5/16 6:30pm P/I/P May 17, 2021 16:44:56 GMT airkeeper and rjshae like this

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Post by fuzzy on May 17, 2021 16:44:56 GMT

May 17, 2021 15:58:52 GMT airkeeper said:

May 17, 2021 5:32:29 GMT carella211 said:

Told you guys. It really doesn't matter who is in goal, because our defending this season has been outstanding. I don't think Cleveland faced any difficult shots the entire match. If we win any silverware this year, it'll be because we are rock solid defensively in this new formation. Schmetz is a freaking genius!

I respectfully disagree, a bit. I think Cleveland played up to the moment, had the confidence to command the back line, and, of course, has benefitted from the best keeper coach in the league Tom fricking Dutra! He made a few sketchy choices and, because of our back line and overall team playing more defensively, his positioning wasn’t exploited—he was cheating off his line a bit too much early on. But he made one excellent save off a hard shot in the second half. LAFC failed to exploit our weakness; we were fortunate—Rossi and Vela and even Blessing failed to recognize shots from distance had the potential of doing us in. I think Cleveland did an fine job with only a few days of prep, and, yes, our defense helped a lot. But against a better, in-form opponent, things likely would have panned out differently. Fortunately for Cleveland, he will have more training/prep time, and our defenders will adapt to him as much as they can.

I basically agree with your take. We could nitpick over how much was due to Cleveland being a lesser keeper vs him having not played in a long time, but I would assume we agree it's a combo of the two. To tie back to the other thread, do you think in a full season we'd drop 15 points with Cleveland in goal as opposed to Frei? I think of that as 5Ws become draws and 5Ds become losses.

Just to throw out a #, I'd say we drop 3-5 points total in a season with Cleveland instead of Frei.

airkeeper
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Seattle Sounders FC v LAFC 5/16 6:30pm P/I/P May 17, 2021 18:14:00 GMT via mobile sounderfan1974 and rjshae like this

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Post by airkeeper on May 17, 2021 18:14:00 GMT

May 17, 2021 16:44:56 GMT fuzzy said:

May 17, 2021 15:58:52 GMT airkeeper said:

I respectfully disagree, a bit. I think Cleveland played up to the moment, had the confidence to command the back line, and, of course, has benefitted from the best keeper coach in the league Tom fricking Dutra! He made a few sketchy choices and, because of our back line and overall team playing more defensively, his positioning wasn’t exploited—he was cheating off his line a bit too much early on. But he made one excellent save off a hard shot in the second half. LAFC failed to exploit our weakness; we were fortunate—Rossi and Vela and even Blessing failed to recognize shots from distance had the potential of doing us in. I think Cleveland did an fine job with only a few days of prep, and, yes, our defense helped a lot. But against a better, in-form opponent, things likely would have panned out differently. Fortunately for Cleveland, he will have more training/prep time, and our defenders will adapt to him as much as they can.

I basically agree with your take. We could nitpick over how much was due to Cleveland being a lesser keeper vs him having not played in a long time, but I would assume we agree it's a combo of the two. To tie back to the other thread, do you think in a full season we'd drop 15 points with Cleveland in goal as opposed to Frei? I think of that as 5Ws become draws and 5Ds become losses.

Just to throw out a #, I'd say we drop 3-5 points total in a season with Cleveland instead of Frei.

When the chips are down, we should all want Frei in goal. I think, given the talent and intensity in the Western Conference, 15 points sounds about right. But what really matters is playoff and championship performance. It’s not just about having more knowledge of teammates, tactics, tendencies, and opponents; being a great keeper is also about being able to command the 18 and beyond, being able to see and predict play, making clutch saves. This all helps the defenders and other players as they have more confidence in the player behind them. I suppose I could have saved us all some time and responded with the biggest two words that illustrate my point of view:

THE Save.

#SchmetzerOut

rjshae
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Seattle Sounders FC v LAFC 5/16 6:30pm P/I/P May 18, 2021 2:13:59 GMT

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Post by rjshae on May 18, 2021 2:13:59 GMT

May 17, 2021 16:44:56 GMT fuzzy said:

May 17, 2021 15:58:52 GMT airkeeper said:

I respectfully disagree, a bit. I think Cleveland played up to the moment, had the confidence to command the back line, and, of course, has benefitted from the best keeper coach in the league Tom fricking Dutra! He made a few sketchy choices and, because of our back line and overall team playing more defensively, his positioning wasn’t exploited—he was cheating off his line a bit too much early on. But he made one excellent save off a hard shot in the second half. LAFC failed to exploit our weakness; we were fortunate—Rossi and Vela and even Blessing failed to recognize shots from distance had the potential of doing us in. I think Cleveland did an fine job with only a few days of prep, and, yes, our defense helped a lot. But against a better, in-form opponent, things likely would have panned out differently. Fortunately for Cleveland, he will have more training/prep time, and our defenders will adapt to him as much as they can.

I basically agree with your take. We could nitpick over how much was due to Cleveland being a lesser keeper vs him having not played in a long time, but I would assume we agree it's a combo of the two. To tie back to the other thread, do you think in a full season we'd drop 15 points with Cleveland in goal as opposed to Frei? I think of that as 5Ws become draws and 5Ds become losses.

Just to throw out a #, I'd say we drop 3-5 points total in a season with Cleveland instead of Frei.

That wouldn't require much of a difference in goalkeeping quality though. 5Ws -> 5Ds, 5Ds -> 5Ls is a minimum difference of 10 goals over a 34 game season. Many games are decided by a one goal difference, so basically a ~0.33 goals per game difference for a significant point drop.

fuzzy
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Seattle Sounders FC v LAFC 5/16 6:30pm P/I/P May 18, 2021 4:41:24 GMT via mobile

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Post by fuzzy on May 18, 2021 4:41:24 GMT

May 18, 2021 2:13:59 GMT rjshae said:

May 17, 2021 16:44:56 GMT fuzzy said:

I basically agree with your take. We could nitpick over how much was due to Cleveland being a lesser keeper vs him having not played in a long time, but I would assume we agree it's a combo of the two. To tie back to the other thread, do you think in a full season we'd drop 15 points with Cleveland in goal as opposed to Frei? I think of that as 5Ws become draws and 5Ds become losses.

Just to throw out a #, I'd say we drop 3-5 points total in a season with Cleveland instead of Frei.

That wouldn't require much of a difference in goalkeeping quality though. 5Ws -> 5Ds, 5Ds -> 5Ls is a minimum difference of 10 goals over a 34 game season. Many games are decided by a one goal difference, so basically a ~0.33 goals per game difference for a significant point drop.

Yeah, I just don't think the raw #s would play out that way, plus in this hypothetical you are banking on all 10 of those goals coming in games which we tied or won by one which is very unlikely. I also think the variation from starter to backup at the other positions makes a much bigger difference in MLS. I'm not suggesting GK doesn't matter, I'm saying 15 points is a lot and too much to pin on that guy in MLS.

rjshae
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Seattle Sounders FC v LAFC 5/16 6:30pm P/I/P May 18, 2021 14:08:02 GMT

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Post by rjshae on May 18, 2021 14:08:02 GMT

May 18, 2021 4:41:24 GMT fuzzy said:

May 18, 2021 2:13:59 GMT rjshae said:

That wouldn't require much of a difference in goalkeeping quality though. 5Ws -> 5Ds, 5Ds -> 5Ls is a minimum difference of 10 goals over a 34 game season. Many games are decided by a one goal difference, so basically a ~0.33 goals per game difference for a significant point drop.

Yeah, I just don't think the raw #s would play out that way, plus in this hypothetical you are banking on all 10 of those goals coming in games which we tied or won by one which is very unlikely. I also think the variation from starter to backup at the other positions makes a much bigger difference in MLS. I'm not suggesting GK doesn't matter, I'm saying 15 points is a lot and too much to pin on that guy in MLS.

Aye. It could be that the difference is based on the PL teams, which vary considerably in talent level and funding. In theory at least, MLS teams should be closer to parity, so the difference here may be more like 5-10 points. Still, that could make a significant difference in final playoff ranking.

airkeeper
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Seattle Sounders FC v LAFC 5/16 6:30pm P/I/P May 18, 2021 15:28:14 GMT via mobile rjshae likes this

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Post by airkeeper on May 18, 2021 15:28:14 GMT

May 18, 2021 14:08:02 GMT rjshae said:

May 18, 2021 4:41:24 GMT fuzzy said:

Yeah, I just don't think the raw #s would play out that way, plus in this hypothetical you are banking on all 10 of those goals coming in games which we tied or won by one which is very unlikely. I also think the variation from starter to backup at the other positions makes a much bigger difference in MLS. I'm not suggesting GK doesn't matter, I'm saying 15 points is a lot and too much to pin on that guy in MLS.

Aye. It could be that the difference is based on the PL teams, which vary considerably in talent level and funding. In theory at least, MLS teams should be closer to parity, so the difference here may be more like 5-10 points. Still, that could make a significant difference in final playoff ranking.

Honestly, the way I translate SAF’s remark about a good GK being worth 15 points to MLS is basically ~7 points in regular season play and then results through the playoffs. The postseason matches are really where the difference lies—especially the Cup match—IMO.

#SchmetzerOut

sounderfan1974
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Seattle Sounders FC v LAFC 5/16 6:30pm P/I/P May 18, 2021 23:04:43 GMT Zafiro and airkeeper like this

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Post by sounderfan1974 on May 18, 2021 23:04:43 GMT

After six matches, it appears that the strategy from opposing coaches is to high press the Sounders in their own half to create turnovers. The first half strongly resembled both the Minnesota as well as the Portland matches with the high press working pretty well, but not really creating that many chances- although I think you'd have to say that it did end up creating the PK situation in Portland, thanks to O'Neill & Rowe.

That being said, in a strange and somewhat frustrating way, IMO the press works to the Sounders' benefit because it pushes the wingbacks to defend, making it more difficult for opponents to create chances. It seemed like every time LAFC got the ball, they just couldn't find a way through the wall set up by the five backs, supported by the midfield in front of them. It is maddening though, because the Sounders couldn't seem to connect more than two passes, but ironically, they had the best chance of the first half when CRoldan sprang Smith for an open shot.

Then, whatever magic Schmetzer used at halftime got the Sounders to find ways to break the press, and eventually the Sounders won again. It would be nice to score in the first half like they did against LAG.

sounderfan1974
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Seattle Sounders FC v LAFC 5/16 6:30pm P/I/P May 18, 2021 23:11:23 GMT airkeeper and rjshae like this

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Post by sounderfan1974 on May 18, 2021 23:11:23 GMT

Observation regarding the broadcast. Although I get sick and tired of broadcasters' bias against the Sounders, it sure is sweet when they have to eat their words and grudgingly give them credit after pulling out another win.
When Vela got up off the bench to sub in, you would have thought they were announcing that God was coming in. They were all but predicting that LAFC was going to come back and win, now that Vela was entering the contest. However, a couple minutes later, the Sounders went down the field and scored their second goal, sealing the victory!

Priceless!

rjshae
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Seattle Sounders FC v LAFC 5/16 6:30pm P/I/P May 19, 2021 0:20:06 GMT airkeeper likes this

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Post by rjshae on May 19, 2021 0:20:06 GMT

May 18, 2021 23:04:43 GMT sounderfan1974 said:

After six matches, it appears that the strategy from opposing coaches is to high press the Sounders in their own half to create turnovers. The first half strongly resembled both the Minnesota as well as the Portland matches with the high press working pretty well, but not really creating that many chances- although I think you'd have to say that it did end up creating the PK situation in Portland, thanks to O'Neill & Rowe.

That being said, in a strange and somewhat frustrating way, IMO the press works to the Sounders' benefit because it pushes the wingbacks to defend, making it more difficult for opponents to create chances. It seemed like every time LAFC got the ball, they just couldn't find a way through the wall set up by the five backs, supported by the midfield in front of them. It is maddening though, because the Sounders couldn't seem to connect more than two passes, but ironically, they had the best chance of the first half when CRoldan sprang Smith for an open shot.

Then, whatever magic Schmetzer used at halftime got the Sounders to find ways to break the press, and eventually the Sounders won again. It would be nice to score in the first half like they did against LAG.

The way the Sounders play against the press now is much improved over what it was when LAFC first came into the league. At least that's the impression I have. They are also better at using it against the opposition. I think just practicing against it regularly in training has made them much better. I'm not as concerned about it any more, because they are becoming pretty good at exploiting the stretched field, even without Lodeiro. When he gets back to health they can only get better.

sounderfan1974
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Seattle Sounders FC v LAFC 5/16 6:30pm P/I/P May 19, 2021 22:27:14 GMT airkeeper likes this

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Post by sounderfan1974 on May 19, 2021 22:27:14 GMT

May 19, 2021 0:20:06 GMT rjshae said:

May 18, 2021 23:04:43 GMT sounderfan1974 said:

After six matches, it appears that the strategy from opposing coaches is to high press the Sounders in their own half to create turnovers. The first half strongly resembled both the Minnesota as well as the Portland matches with the high press working pretty well, but not really creating that many chances- although I think you'd have to say that it did end up creating the PK situation in Portland, thanks to O'Neill & Rowe.

That being said, in a strange and somewhat frustrating way, IMO the press works to the Sounders' benefit because it pushes the wingbacks to defend, making it more difficult for opponents to create chances. It seemed like every time LAFC got the ball, they just couldn't find a way through the wall set up by the five backs, supported by the midfield in front of them. It is maddening though, because the Sounders couldn't seem to connect more than two passes, but ironically, they had the best chance of the first half when CRoldan sprang Smith for an open shot.

Then, whatever magic Schmetzer used at halftime got the Sounders to find ways to break the press, and eventually the Sounders won again. It would be nice to score in the first half like they did against LAG.

The way the Sounders play against the press now is much improved over what it was when LAFC first came into the league. At least that's the impression I have. They are also better at using it against the opposition. I think just practicing against it regularly in training has made them much better. I'm not as concerned about it any more, because they are becoming pretty good at exploiting the stretched field, even without Lodeiro. When he gets back to health they can only get better.

Yes, they are dealing with the high press better. However, it is still a work in progress because for minutes on end in the first half, they could not get the ball past the halfline. I didn't see the % of possession for the first 45, but it must have been hugely in favor of LAFC.

Cristian Roldan was asked in one interview what he felt the difference was in how the Sounders come back to win in the second halves of matches, and he credited it to perhaps their being more fit than their opponents. This could be true, but I also have to think that teams who rely on the high press also tend to tire themselves out and maybe just aren't as sharp in the second half.

In any event, something is working for the Sounders and I hope they can keep it up!

rjshae
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Seattle Sounders FC v LAFC 5/16 6:30pm P/I/P May 20, 2021 0:19:25 GMT airkeeper and sounderfan1974 like this

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Post by rjshae on May 20, 2021 0:19:25 GMT

May 19, 2021 22:27:14 GMT sounderfan1974 said:

May 19, 2021 0:20:06 GMT rjshae said:

The way the Sounders play against the press now is much improved over what it was when LAFC first came into the league. At least that's the impression I have. They are also better at using it against the opposition. I think just practicing against it regularly in training has made them much better. I'm not as concerned about it any more, because they are becoming pretty good at exploiting the stretched field, even without Lodeiro. When he gets back to health they can only get better.

Yes, they are dealing with the high press better. However, it is still a work in progress because for minutes on end in the first half, they could not get the ball past the halfline. I didn't see the % of possession for the first 45, but it must have been hugely in favor of LAFC.

Cristian Roldan was asked in one interview what he felt the difference was in how the Sounders come back to win in the second halves of matches, and he credited it to perhaps their being more fit than their opponents. This could be true, but I also have to think that teams who rely on the high press also tend to tire themselves out and maybe just aren't as sharp in the second half.

In any event, something is working for the Sounders and I hope they can keep it up!

All that high pressing and chasing the pass burns a lot of energy. If you don't get a goal early, it can come back to bite you later in the game when your legs are tired. The Sounders are more selective in when they press.