Fall of Sounders Attendance; Rise of Ticket Prices

Holden
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Fall of Sounders Attendance; Rise of Ticket Prices Aug 1, 2024 14:30:47 GMT airkeeper and INVINCIBLE 2023 Fantasy Champ like this

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Post by Holden on Aug 1, 2024 14:30:47 GMT

I figured I'd start a separate thread to discuss this after seeing an acceleration of red flags and INVINCIBLE 2023 Fantasy Champ 's note in the season thread "Over on reddit people are seeing 11-17% increases in season ticket prices for 2025. Imagine jacking ticket prices while refusing to do anything in the transfer market."

Attendance has been in decline since 2017(!!), but took a sharp dip in 2020 during the pandemic shutdowns, and appears to be taking a further sharp dip right now.

Reported attendance vs. Minnesota in League's Cup last Friday night: 28,012 (tickets sold)
Attendance just before kickoff:

The 2024 attendance average of 30,159 (again, tickets sold) is the LOWEST average attendance since the Sounders joined the league in 2009. Besides the pandemic years with mandated shutdowns and restrictions.

2009 Seattle Population: 618,420
2024 Seattle Population: 797,700
Population % Increase: 29%

2009 Average Attendance: 30,943
2024 Average Attendance: 30,159
Attendance % Decrease: -2.5%

2009 Cheapest Season Single Ticket Package: $288 / $421 inflation adjusted (18 home games, for $16/game) - Available for multiple sections at then Qwest Field
2024 Cheapest Season Single Ticket Package: $540 (18 home games, for $30/game) - ECS section only
Inflation adjusted % Increase: 28%*
* This increase is MUCH greater for the average season ticket holder in mid-level sections, and especially greater in low seat/lower bowl or suite sections

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Sounders payroll is down -14.6% this year compared to 2023.

No summer signings in the past 3 years, with no notable midseason signings since 2018.

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The Sounders are now reaching the point where this snowballs. Declining product --> lower attendance/merch sales --> lower revenue --> declining product.

To buck the trend ownership must be willing to run business at a loss for a few years, either through roster overhaul with legitimate DPs or through improving the gameday experience and selling tickets at a "loss".

That doesn't appear to be in the realm of possibility with the current ownership structure.

Immensely disappointing, given we were gifted with the Club World Cup in 2025 and the World Cup on the horizon in 2026. I recommend season ticket holders provide their unfiltered feedback to their ticket reps.

Last Edit: Aug 1, 2024 14:32:31 GMT by Holden

Holden Senior Member This too shall pass. Posts: 5,083	Fall of Sounders Attendance; Rise of Ticket Prices Aug 1, 2024 14:42:17 GMT airkeeper likes this Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by Holden on Aug 1, 2024 14:42:17 GMT
	Last Edit: Aug 1, 2024 14:42:59 GMT by Holden

Holden Senior Member This too shall pass. Posts: 5,083	Fall of Sounders Attendance; Rise of Ticket Prices Aug 1, 2024 14:46:17 GMT airkeeper likes this Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by Holden on Aug 1, 2024 14:46:17 GMT

Holden Senior Member This too shall pass. Posts: 5,083	Fall of Sounders Attendance; Rise of Ticket Prices Aug 1, 2024 14:46:49 GMT airkeeper likes this Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by Holden on Aug 1, 2024 14:46:49 GMT

Holden Senior Member This too shall pass. Posts: 5,083	Fall of Sounders Attendance; Rise of Ticket Prices Aug 1, 2024 14:52:01 GMT airkeeper likes this Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by Holden on Aug 1, 2024 14:52:01 GMT

airkeeper
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Fall of Sounders Attendance; Rise of Ticket Prices Aug 1, 2024 16:01:53 GMT via mobile

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Post by airkeeper on Aug 1, 2024 16:01:53 GMT

We have all read or at least seen snippets from the interview with Hanauer in which he laid out "the organization's" long term goal of developing the Longacres training facility and went on to talk about building a stadium out there. That is what keeps nagging at me--the whole stadium ambition.

If the team keeps struggling, the organization continues to do little to nothing to improve the squad, and they keep upping ticket prices then, of course, attendance is gonna suffer. Maybe that is precisely what the FO wants.

Dropping attendance and "high costs of operation" at Lumen would help bolster the argument that SSFC need a 25,000-35,000 seat soccer specific stadium. And as it just so happens, the organization/owners already have some land in mind for such a structure. A new stadium would surely see a bump in attendance, simply for the novelty, and the organization would control everything: select all vendors, set all prices, and take in all revenue. Plus the whole strip mall malarkey AH talked about, and Hanauerville is born.

Is the FO intentionally failing to invest in improving the first team, not opposing a significant drop in quality, and jacking up ticket prices in order to intentionally drive away fans? -I think it is a possibility.

Real quick, per the attendance for the cash grab cup match versus MIN, my understanding was that the matches were included in this year's STH package unless the holder opted out. Most fans see it as the bullshit it is, and I doubt many folks will attend matches unless they are against clubs with big names.

#SchmetzerOut

airkeeper
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Fall of Sounders Attendance; Rise of Ticket Prices Aug 1, 2024 16:03:44 GMT via mobile Holden and INVINCIBLE 2023 Fantasy Champ like this

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Post by airkeeper on Aug 1, 2024 16:03:44 GMT

A friend and I (living in Yak and Eburg, respectively) had talked about maybe getting season tix ahead of this season. I, the bigger soccer fan and Sounders supporter between us, convinced my friend not to do it. While we have fun when we go, the product on the pitch had been poor and the club did nothing to improve the squad (yeah, no, PDLV is not a proven quality signing) and the cost of gas, parking, food, etc is just ridiculous. Plus when the team is a poor as it's been the last couple years, it doesn't exactly feel worth it to drive 4-5 hours round trip on top of the financial expenses. It's gotten to the point this year that I've graciously declined free tickets three or four times already. I could not be more pleased we didn't waste our money on STs but am beyond disappointed that the state of our beloved Sounders has come to this.

#SchmetzerOut

INVINCIBLE 2023 Fantasy Champ
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Fall of Sounders Attendance; Rise of Ticket Prices Aug 1, 2024 17:50:49 GMT

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Post by INVINCIBLE 2023 Fantasy Champ on Aug 1, 2024 17:50:49 GMT

Aug 1, 2024 16:01:53 GMT airkeeper said:

Is the FO intentionally failing to invest in improving the first team, not opposing a significant drop in quality, and jacking up ticket prices in order to intentionally drive away fans? -I think it is a possibility.

I find this unlikely, because higher ticket prices alienate all fans equally. If you're planning to move to Renton, the last thing you want to do is piss of fans in Renton (and Kent, and Auburn, etc.).

I'm inclined to apply Hanlon's Razor: "never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." Hanauer just doesn't know what he's doing. If fan relations were the only thing going poorly it would be one thing, but EVERYTHING has declined. The front office sucks, scouting sucks, the signings suck, the medical team sucks, the "brand refresh" was pointless. Hanauer drove off all the people who made us an MLS powerhouse because he thought he was smart enough to do everything on his own. And he's not. He's just a trust fund baby playing with grandpa's money.

INVINCIBLE 2023 Fantasy Champ
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Fall of Sounders Attendance; Rise of Ticket Prices Aug 1, 2024 18:15:49 GMT

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Post by INVINCIBLE 2023 Fantasy Champ on Aug 1, 2024 18:15:49 GMT

Aug 1, 2024 14:42:17 GMT Holden said:

Riffe said he's not renewing. The organization obviously screwed up badly when a guy who runs a Sounders podcast is out. Even some of the S@H bootlickers who have been flacking for Hanauer for more than a decade are criticizing this. If they're getting this kind of pushback from Terminally Online Sounders Fans, imagine how many cancelations they're getting from casual fans.

Holden
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Fall of Sounders Attendance; Rise of Ticket Prices Aug 1, 2024 18:49:19 GMT airkeeper and INVINCIBLE 2023 Fantasy Champ like this

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Post by Holden on Aug 1, 2024 18:49:19 GMT

Aug 1, 2024 18:15:49 GMT INVINCIBLE 2023 Fantasy Champ said:

Aug 1, 2024 14:42:17 GMT Holden said:

Riffe said he's not renewing. The organization obviously screwed up badly when a guy who runs a Sounders podcast is out. Even some of the S@H bootlickers who have been flacking for Hanauer for more than a decade are criticizing this. If they're getting this kind of pushback from Terminally Online Sounders Fans, imagine how many cancelations they're getting from casual fans.

The irony is strong with S@H. They put all their content behind a paywall and are probably wondering why their site traffic and discourse around the team is down.

INVINCIBLE 2023 Fantasy Champ
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Fall of Sounders Attendance; Rise of Ticket Prices Aug 1, 2024 19:08:18 GMT Holden and fuzzy like this

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Post by INVINCIBLE 2023 Fantasy Champ on Aug 1, 2024 19:08:18 GMT

Aug 1, 2024 18:49:19 GMT Holden said:

Aug 1, 2024 18:15:49 GMT INVINCIBLE 2023 Fantasy Champ said:

Riffe said he's not renewing. The organization obviously screwed up badly when a guy who runs a Sounders podcast is out. Even some of the S@H bootlickers who have been flacking for Hanauer for more than a decade are criticizing this. If they're getting this kind of pushback from Terminally Online Sounders Fans, imagine how many cancelations they're getting from casual fans.

The irony is strong with S@H. They put all their content behind a paywall and are probably wondering why their site traffic and discourse around the team is down.

Weird how S@H went to a subscription model right around the same time Hanauer was cutting spending in all areas of the club.

Coincidence, I'm sure.

fuzzy
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Fall of Sounders Attendance; Rise of Ticket Prices Aug 1, 2024 21:22:30 GMT airkeeper and INVINCIBLE 2023 Fantasy Champ like this

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Post by fuzzy on Aug 1, 2024 21:22:30 GMT

For fans there's nothing good about what is happening. Credit to AJ - while I have and will disagree with many of your points, you've been banging the drum for several years now about the downfall of this club and on that top level point, you were right.

Any idea what other clubs are seeing? I think to airkeeper's point, driving fans away from the stadium is at least an acceptable outcome to the decision makers, so what are they getting? Maybe they predict total matchday revenue to increase through the fans who stay, but at best that's going to be a marginal gain.

I'll float a theory - I think the league wants to drive up TV ratings. Top sports leagues don't make the bulk of their money from gate receipts and concessions but rather it comes from broadcast deals and sponsorships. I think the Apple TV #s are disappointing and while that deal is locked in for 7 more seasons, consider that if this fails Apple is fine to just walk away whereas MLS is making large investments in broadcast teams, studios, equipment and what not that they need to pay off after that time. MLS and Apple don't release viewership numbers but I found an article saying there were 211k viewers for a LAG/LAFC game on Fox earlier this season; that's pretty pathetic. For context, WNBA games were averaging 462k viewers last season are up to 1.32M this season and yet they just signed a similar deal at $2.2M over 11 years. One can fairly argue there are 2.5x more MLS teams than WNBA, so the total numbers probably look closer, but even if we napkin that out MLS is behind the current season WNBA #s by a good margin.

I'm not sure a few thousand fans choosing TV over the stadium will really move the needle, which admittedly makes my theory a bit sus, but idk what else to think. Even to the point that it's straight stupidity - I absolutely don't rule that out, but even very stupid people at least have some thought of why their idea will be good. I'm struggling to see it but the tv #s is the best I've got.

INVINCIBLE 2023 Fantasy Champ
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Fall of Sounders Attendance; Rise of Ticket Prices Aug 1, 2024 22:30:40 GMT

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Post by INVINCIBLE 2023 Fantasy Champ on Aug 1, 2024 22:30:40 GMT

Aug 1, 2024 21:22:30 GMT fuzzy said:

I'll float a theory - I think the league wants to drive up TV ratings. Top sports leagues don't make the bulk of their money from gate receipts and concessions but rather it comes from broadcast deals and sponsorships. I think the Apple TV #s are disappointing and while that deal is locked in for 7 more seasons, consider that if this fails Apple is fine to just walk away whereas MLS is making large investments in broadcast teams, studios, equipment and what not that they need to pay off after that time. MLS and Apple don't release viewership numbers but I found an article saying there were 211k viewers for a LAG/LAFC game on Fox earlier this season; that's pretty pathetic. For context, WNBA games were averaging 462k viewers last season are up to 1.32M this season and yet they just signed a similar deal at $2.2M over 11 years. One can fairly argue there are 2.5x more MLS teams than WNBA, so the total numbers probably look closer, but even if we napkin that out MLS is behind the current season WNBA #s by a good margin.

I think the strongest support for that idea is the inconvenient kickoff times. I've seen a number of people say the constant 7:30 Saturday kickoffs played a role in their decision to dump their season tickets. At some point MLS is going to have to realize you can't have a hot TV product with dead crowds. Even the NFL juggernaut saw a 7% ratings dip in the 2020 pandemic season, which rebounded 10% in 2021 when fans were back.

The scary thing is that Apple reportedly can walk away from the deal if they don't meet subscriber targets. So potentially MLS could burn bridges with the fans only to see Apple opt out of the deal anyway.

All that said, the Sounders decline predated Apple. It was obvious in 2021 with the failure to strengthen in summer and in 2022 with the weak-sauce use of a DP slot on Rusnak and refusal to sign literally anyone in summer despite our worst MLS season ever.

Holden
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Fall of Sounders Attendance; Rise of Ticket Prices Aug 1, 2024 23:57:12 GMT airkeeper and INVINCIBLE 2023 Fantasy Champ like this

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Post by Holden on Aug 1, 2024 23:57:12 GMT

I still don't know what to think of the "Return Ticket Program", which was introduced in 2023. www.soundersfc.com/tickets/return-ticket-program

If you can't make a game as a season ticket holder, you can "return" your ticket for credit which can be used to upgrade seats or bring extras along to a future game. You can do this for up to 7 games a year, which to me, seems like a lot.

It's a fan friendly benefit...but almost too fan friendly? It encourages the only regular fans left to consider not attending the game which is an odd marketing technique. It's also very telling that the credit can be used at future games to "bring the whole family" or "bring the whole soccer team for a match for a group outing" because we are nowhere close to actually selling out games any more.

Also, since these are "returns" for credit and not "refunds", I'm sure these tickets count towards reported attendance numbers whether the Sounders resell them or not. If I had to guess, our actual MLS attendance butts-in-seats average is probably closer to 20,000 this year.

INVINCIBLE 2023 Fantasy Champ
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Fall of Sounders Attendance; Rise of Ticket Prices Aug 2, 2024 1:43:37 GMT

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Post by INVINCIBLE 2023 Fantasy Champ on Aug 2, 2024 1:43:37 GMT

Aug 1, 2024 23:57:12 GMT Holden said:

I still don't know what to think of the "Return Ticket Program", which was introduced in 2023. www.soundersfc.com/tickets/return-ticket-program

If you can't make a game as a season ticket holder, you can "return" your ticket for credit which can be used to upgrade seats or bring extras along to a future game. You can do this for up to 7 games a year, which to me, seems like a lot.

It's a fan friendly benefit...but almost too fan friendly? It encourages the only regular fans left to consider not attending the game which is an odd marketing technique. It's also very telling that the credit can be used at future games to "bring the whole family" or "bring the whole soccer team for a match for a group outing" because we are nowhere close to actually selling out games any more.

Also, since these are "returns" for credit and not "refunds", I'm sure these tickets count towards reported attendance numbers whether the Sounders resell them or not. If I had to guess, our actual MLS attendance butts-in-seats average is probably closer to 20,000 this year.

It's so that people who are put off by the inconvenient match times won't just give up the season tickets entirely and buy on a per-game basis. I'm becoming increasingly convinced the organization has serious cash flow problems, and getting the up-front payment for season tickets is necessary even if they have to give back some credits. As you said, those seats would have been empty anyway.